“你沒(méi)有界線”——尹吉男&滕菲的一次聊天（2011-09-27）

滕菲：上學(xué)的時(shí)候，應(yīng)該是八幾年，我記得有一次你跟我說(shuō)，現(xiàn)在你這樣的普通話特時(shí)髦，好多人開(kāi)始學(xué)這個(gè)。

尹吉男：對(duì)，帶一點(diǎn)南方腔。

滕菲：當(dāng)時(shí)我還沒(méi)感覺(jué)，但過(guò)了一段時(shí)間我就感覺(jué)到了，有的人故意這么說(shuō)。

尹吉男：過(guò)去是普通話的概念。普通話就是廣播里的聲音，廣播里的聲音就是一個(gè)最正經(jīng)的，最權(quán)威的聲音。但是，它逐漸被解構(gòu)了。主持人的聲音發(fā)生變化，特別電臺(tái)里面主持娛樂(lè)節(jié)目有好多帶口音的聲音。這樣就等于把方言合法化了。它是怎么開(kāi)始的呢？改革開(kāi)放以后，先是香港話開(kāi)始出現(xiàn)了。以前沒(méi)有人特意來(lái)說(shuō)這個(gè)，但后來(lái)變成潮流了，越來(lái)越多的人來(lái)講這些方言。這也意味著不再是一個(gè)標(biāo)準(zhǔn)，標(biāo)準(zhǔn)多元了，用哪一種方言都可以表達(dá)。

滕菲：反正你感覺(jué)到混在里頭說(shuō)不好也沒(méi)關(guān)系。我就想起你還跟我說(shuō)過(guò)這個(gè)，現(xiàn)在還真是這么回事。這個(gè)我有印象，因?yàn)槲腋杏X(jué)到那種變化了。原來(lái)要說(shuō)話發(fā)言，語(yǔ)言不是很準(zhǔn)的話，還是覺(jué)得有點(diǎn)不大合適，不好意思。后來(lái)就覺(jué)得挺如魚得水，因?yàn)榇蠹矣械倪€故意這么說(shuō)。口音我一輩子就改不了，特別頑固。

“為什么版畫系出的當(dāng)代藝術(shù)家多”

滕菲：我本科畢業(yè)的時(shí)候做的是水印木刻。 嘗試了好多傳統(tǒng)上沒(méi)有用過(guò)的方法。當(dāng)時(shí)我記得伍必端先生覺(jué)得挺有意思的，跟他們的不一樣，他說(shuō)你什么時(shí)候來(lái)一趟，我們聊一聊，我就特懶。當(dāng)時(shí)弄的那個(gè)木刻，也是有一定影響的。

尹吉男： 為什么版畫系出的當(dāng)代藝術(shù)家多？因?yàn)樗羞@種制作性。這個(gè)制作性，就包含了現(xiàn)代性在里面，因?yàn)椴皇峭耆賹懙摹Ｒ驗(yàn)樗囆g(shù)有兩種，一種是速寫，就是馬上就抒發(fā)出來(lái)；還有一種就是制作，一遍一遍制作出來(lái)。這個(gè)就跟現(xiàn)代藝術(shù)的方式有關(guān)系。

現(xiàn)代藝術(shù)方式兩個(gè)，一個(gè)是你要轉(zhuǎn)換，把你的想法、觀念從一個(gè)方式轉(zhuǎn)到另外一個(gè)方式。一個(gè)是你要制作，要制作出來(lái)，而不是用速寫的方式來(lái)做。劉小東是比較典型的速寫方式。他的畫很快，幾天就畫出來(lái)了。他把最初的感覺(jué)保留在畫面上，那種生動(dòng)、情緒都在畫里面。但大多數(shù)人是制作的，包括像方力均、張曉剛都是制作性特別強(qiáng)的。他們是一遍一遍地制作，那個(gè)東西沒(méi)有速寫性。你看畫面，在筆觸上看不到情緒，只是一個(gè)結(jié)構(gòu)，一個(gè)圖像。是不一樣的東西。

我想說(shuō)，你回頭做的話，你也可能是利用兩種制作性的訓(xùn)練，版畫和設(shè)計(jì)，再來(lái)做一個(gè)某種更自由的東西，也可能會(huì)形成另外一個(gè)什么東西。我是這樣想。

“你跟別的人是不一樣的”

滕菲：跟你交流太少了。你可能也就看過(guò)我2006年的那個(gè)小展覽，為我自己做的東西。對(duì)吧？

尹吉男：對(duì)。87年你畢業(yè)的那個(gè)時(shí)候，我還沒(méi)有太關(guān)注當(dāng)代藝術(shù)。我寫第一篇評(píng)論是88年，呂勝中和徐冰的展覽。最早有印象的作品，是你已經(jīng)從德國(guó)回來(lái)了，有一些展覽，也做一些首飾。

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滕菲：還沒(méi)有和你正面聊過(guò)。

尹吉男：你的作品給我的感覺(jué)是出身不一樣。原來(lái)做設(shè)計(jì)的，怎么說(shuō)呢，可能設(shè)計(jì)性特別強(qiáng)。但是，你做這個(gè)，有設(shè)計(jì)性，但設(shè)計(jì)性是隱藏在背后，不是那么粗淺。一看就是藝術(shù)家做的，跟設(shè)計(jì)師做的有區(qū)別。有的東西你會(huì)更多地強(qiáng)調(diào)繪畫性。更多考慮它不是僅僅戴在手上的效果，甚至把它變成很獨(dú)立的東西來(lái)看待，有點(diǎn)像一個(gè)作品一樣。可能設(shè)計(jì)師只考慮，手上是什么樣的感覺(jué)，這個(gè)首飾是什么東西。作品有這樣的差別。

還有，你對(duì)材質(zhì)本身比較重視。用什么樣的材質(zhì)和什么結(jié)合是你注重的。以前我不太注重材質(zhì)。90年代初的時(shí)候，我跟隋建國(guó)聊天，說(shuō)到這個(gè)東西時(shí)，對(duì)我有觸動(dòng)。你的作品突顯這個(gè)，強(qiáng)調(diào)材質(zhì)本身的這個(gè)質(zhì)感。這個(gè)質(zhì)感本身是可以說(shuō)話的。這也是你和別人的一個(gè)比較。

另外，你做的首飾又是立體的平面。從不同角度上來(lái)看，這個(gè)東西既可以戴在手上，又可以獨(dú)立地在一個(gè)空間里放置，也可以放置到展廳里，是多層考慮。把它當(dāng)成藝術(shù)品來(lái)對(duì)待，不是一個(gè)工藝品，有這樣一個(gè)方式。我那時(shí)候就想，作為藝術(shù)家來(lái)做這樣一個(gè)展示，把它作為一個(gè)藝術(shù)品來(lái)對(duì)待，可能會(huì)呈現(xiàn)這樣一種效果。但是我當(dāng)時(shí)也在想，如果要回頭來(lái)做藝術(shù)，又會(huì)是什么樣？

因?yàn)槲艺J(rèn)識(shí)一個(gè)陶藝家叫白明。他的東西我特別喜歡。看了那個(gè)東西就想擁有，是真的喜歡。但是他總是拿他的畫給我看。我就跟他講，你畫畫跟陶藝比差得非常遠(yuǎn)。你那個(gè)東西是不經(jīng)意做得特別好，達(dá)到巔峰狀態(tài)。但我不反對(duì)你畫，為什么？你畫畫的自由狀態(tài)，會(huì)把它畫到那個(gè)陶藝?yán)锶ァ＿@是其他陶藝家沒(méi)有的資源。因?yàn)樗菍W(xué)工藝出身的。像他這樣，他之所以做得好是因?yàn)樗灿幸恍┳杂杀磉_(dá)的仙氣，不斷從繪畫里面找一些感覺(jué)。純粹的陶藝家的作品你看了，看著很氣派，做得也很好看，但是總覺(jué)得憋悶，沒(méi)有一種通透的，打開(kāi)的東西。所以這是一個(gè)例子，就是你跟別的人是不一樣的。我覺(jué)得你也有一種東西，是別人所沒(méi)有的。

“每一種表達(dá)都有它的職能”

“Every kind of expression has its own function.”

滕菲：的確也是你剛才說(shuō)的。我這個(gè)背景是從藝術(shù)來(lái)的，不是說(shuō)從那個(gè)設(shè)計(jì)的狀態(tài)里。從我個(gè)人的東西來(lái)說(shuō)，更多還是借助首飾這么一個(gè)切入點(diǎn)，在藝術(shù)實(shí)踐的范疇里躲著。為什么有時(shí)候說(shuō)特糾結(jié)呢？就是你想做自己東西的時(shí)候，你要保持相對(duì)的自由；但當(dāng)你要做教學(xué)的時(shí)候，肯定要考慮設(shè)計(jì)的需求，因?yàn)楫吘故窃谠O(shè)計(jì)學(xué)院。所以我有時(shí)候就老在轉(zhuǎn)換這種角色。反正做得也挺有意思，感覺(jué)這里面可做的東西特別多。

尹吉男：其實(shí)就跟我自己寫作一樣。寫作當(dāng)中可能會(huì)有兩種文體。一種文體可能就是寫規(guī)范的論文。論文能夠表達(dá)自己?jiǎn)幔磕堋５欠浅I(yè)化的一種學(xué)術(shù)。不過(guò)，這個(gè)并不是全部。你肯定有很多想法是在這樣的模式里面不能實(shí)現(xiàn)的。那么你就可以寫隨筆。別人叫它評(píng)論。我一直叫隨筆。只不過(guò)這個(gè)隨筆是拿一些作品當(dāng)做一個(gè)材料來(lái)進(jìn)行寫作的。它的文體模式和論文完全不一樣。兩種東西都是我寫的，并不能說(shuō)這個(gè)是我寫的，那個(gè)不是我寫的。

我是覺(jué)得用一種方式只能表達(dá)一部分，不要奢望這一種方式把一切都表達(dá)了。我不能說(shuō)把它們對(duì)調(diào)。或者只用一種。如果我指定一種方式表達(dá)全部，結(jié)果是使每一種表達(dá)都不純粹。所以是有很多方式的。要多種渠道表達(dá)。每一種表達(dá)都有它的職能，都會(huì)很純粹。加起來(lái)你的靈感就更強(qiáng)大，而不是一個(gè)片狀的。你看魯迅又寫文學(xué)史，又寫政論，又寫小說(shuō)。小說(shuō)從中篇到短篇都寫。還寫雜文、散文，還堅(jiān)持?jǐn)?shù)十年雷打不動(dòng)寫日記，他幾乎能把我們能想象到的文本都占全了。他全方位地表達(dá)自己，而且發(fā)現(xiàn)每一個(gè)自己都是一個(gè)側(cè)面。

你沒(méi)有界線，版畫也做，油畫也做，雕塑也做，幾乎沒(méi)有不做的東西，沒(méi)有限制，就是藝術(shù)家。

“生活狀態(tài)本身就非常不確定”

滕菲：到了這個(gè)階段了，按說(shuō)是各方面都比較純粹了。現(xiàn)在如果說(shuō)最在意的，你會(huì)最在意什么呢？

尹吉男：我覺(jué)得還是思想自由的這種精妙。你能夠把你想的東西，及時(shí)、順利、有效地表達(dá)出來(lái)。這個(gè)是最重要的。到這個(gè)年齡段，只能說(shuō)比以前好像能夠更自由一些。第一我沒(méi)有說(shuō)規(guī)定我算哪個(gè)學(xué)科的，學(xué)科是自由的。此外，所有的訪談，我特不愿意聽(tīng)一個(gè)詞，就是你作為什么什么的，你怎么樣怎么樣。這個(gè)詞我特別不喜歡，因?yàn)槲沂裁炊疾蛔鳛椋揖褪沁@樣的一個(gè)狀態(tài)。只是覺(jué)得，你能夠去自由地思想和表達(dá)。只要他的這種模式對(duì)你有一種限制的話，你就會(huì)不舒服，你就要反抗。而且我特別不喜歡普遍性的東西。

滕菲：這點(diǎn)還真是。你剛才說(shuō)到的好多東西，我會(huì)有同感，我也想說(shuō)這個(gè)肯定挺限制的，受不了。還有就像你說(shuō)的，也不喜歡從眾的那個(gè)東西。一看大家都那樣，我就趕緊撤離。一種條件反射，你就不愿意在那個(gè)狀態(tài)下。我們生日同天，這個(gè)東西看來(lái)還是有點(diǎn)關(guān)系的。

尹吉男：人都有這樣的關(guān)系。因?yàn)槲覀兌紝儆谒孔摹Ｋ麄冋f(shuō)水瓶座本身就是追求自由，不愿有限制，不愿意有一個(gè)束縛的東西。

滕菲：我學(xué)生也說(shuō)我。水瓶座的人，不知道他在想什么的。

尹吉男：對(duì)，呂勝中寫我，他第一句話就是，他是讓人看不準(zhǔn)的人。

滕菲：這種時(shí)代，這個(gè)狀態(tài)，對(duì)現(xiàn)在的藝術(shù)，你有一個(gè)什么樣的自己的看法？

尹吉男：總體來(lái)講，藝術(shù)現(xiàn)在逐漸逐漸開(kāi)始從價(jià)值觀范疇里面游離出來(lái)了。它不代表一種價(jià)值判斷。它只是說(shuō)帶有一個(gè)階段性的，或者是一種臨時(shí)性的。你的一個(gè)想法，或者你的一個(gè)情緒，僅此而已。當(dāng)代藝術(shù)跟人文學(xué)科的關(guān)系開(kāi)始變得不像過(guò)去了，過(guò)去基本上沒(méi)有辦法來(lái)剝離。人文學(xué)科是價(jià)值觀的。現(xiàn)在藝術(shù)變成臨時(shí)性的東西，臨時(shí)性的一個(gè)感觸，一個(gè)想法，一個(gè)做法，而不是代表一種價(jià)值。這是一個(gè)特別大的變化。

從現(xiàn)代主義到后現(xiàn)代這個(gè)時(shí)期變化特別快，一個(gè)人有很多變化，而且有很多的措施，有不同表達(dá)，表達(dá)的領(lǐng)域也是五花八門。有時(shí)候我們懷疑是不是有統(tǒng)一的人。也不存在分離不分離，他就表達(dá)了不同時(shí)期特定的一個(gè)想法，一個(gè)特定想法不見(jiàn)得就是跟你這個(gè)人有什么關(guān)系，不需要有聯(lián)系。

滕菲：其實(shí)這么說(shuō)起來(lái)，現(xiàn)在這種生活狀態(tài)本身實(shí)際上就非常不確定。

（注：因篇幅所限，這里刊出的只是這一次交流的節(jié)選。----蔣岳紅 整理）

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“No Limitations”

---- A Conversation between Yin Ji’nan and Teng Fei（2011-09-27）

Teng Fei: When I was in school in the 1980s, you once told me my way of pronunciation was in fashion, and more people were beginning to talk that way.

Yin Jinan: Yes, with a little southern accent.

Teng Fei: I didn’t realize it at that time, but some time later I found some people speaking mandarin this way purposedly.

Yin Jinan: Our concepts of “Mandarin” have changed. Mandarin was the voice on the radio, and was considered the most standard and authoritative voice. But this idea has changed over years. Hosts’ voices have changed. They speak Mandarin with accents, especially those entertainment hosts on radio stations. It has been a slow process. In other words, dialects have become accepted. But how did this begin? After reform and opening, Hong Kong dialects began to be heard. People never used to want to speak that way, but it began to get popular, and many people began to speak with an accent. It meant that Mandarin was not the absolute standard, and ideas could be expressed with any accent or dialect.

Teng Fei: And it doesn’t matter if you can’t speak any particular dialect that well. I was just thinking of what you had told me, and it is absolutely the case now. I have felt this change. In the past, if you couldn’t speak good Mandarin it was really embarrassing. But now you feel good speaking with some accent, because more and more people speak this way purposedly. I will never be able to change my own accent.

“Why do so many contemporary artists come from a printmaking background?”

Teng Fei: My major in university was woodprints. I tried a lot of new, non-traditional methods, and Mr. Wu Biduan was interested in what I was making, and said they were very special. He told me to come to his place to talk about it, but I was too lazy to go. But those woodprints influenced my later work.

Yin Jinan: Why do so many contemporary artists come from a printmaking background? It’s because of the productive nature of printmaking. This productive nature is not just drawing, so it retains a contemporary feel. Art has two types: one is drawing, expressing ideas directly; another is production, producing things over and over again. In this way it is related to contemporary art’s methods.

There are two kinds of contemporary art. One is transformation-- transforming your ideas and concepts to something different. The other is production—creating something, not just drawing literally. Liu Xiaodong uses a typical drawing method. He paints fast and can finish one piece in a few days. He retains the original feelings on the canvas, and tucks the vividness and emotion into the painting. But most contemporary works use production, for example Fang Lijun and Zhang Xiaogang. They produce over and over again, but not literal drawings. When you look at the canvas, you do not feel emotions in the brushwork, but see only the structure and the image. It is different.

I would say, if you were to do it again, you might utilize two different kinds of production,printmaking and design, to make your works even freer or set your works in a different direction.

“You have something others do not have”

Teng Fei: I haven’t spoken with you for a while. I think you might have seen my last small exhibition in 2006, what I made pieces for myself. Is that right?

Yin Jinan: Yes. At the time when you graduated in 1987, I wasn’t paying much attention to contemporary art. I wrote my first art review in 1988, about the exhibition of Lv Shengzhong and Xu Bing. By that time when I noticed your work, you had already come back from abroad .You had some exhibitions,including your art jewelry.

Teng Fei: I hadn’t spoken to you about my work.

Yin Jinan: Your work gives me a feeling of a departure. Usually, a ‘designer’ will emphasize the ‘design’ of their work, but with you, the design sense is hiding behind the pieces themselves, less obvious. Looking at your works, one can tell they are made by an artist, not a designer. We can see more “picturesqueness” in your work .You don’t only see jewelry as something to complement their bodies, but regard it as an independent thing, a piece of art. Maybe designers only think about the feeling of the jewelry on their hand and what it is. That is the difference.

Also, you attach a lot of importance to materials, and to which kinds of materials can be matched together. I never paid much attention to materials before, but after a chat with Sui Jianguo in the 90’s, the significance of materials hit me. You emphasize the material itself, whose texture or meaning itself can say something.This is a contrast to others.

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Your jewelry is also very three-dimensional. Seen from different perspectives, it could be worn on hands, or independently put in a space, or exhibited in an exhibition hall. It should be regarded as artwork, not a handicraft. I think for something to be made by an artist and exhibited and regarded as artwork, it should have this kind of effect. But I also wonder what would it be if you were returning to make artwork?

I know a ceramicist named Bai Ming, and I like his works very much. When I see his works, I want to own them. But he always brings out his paintings to show me, and I tell him, “Your paintings are a far cry from your ceramics. Your ceramics are so casually exquisite. But I have no objection to your painting, either, because your free style can influence your ceramics. That’s something other ceramicists do not have.” He is a born craftsman, finding feeling from free expression and his painting. True ceramicists have impressive styles and make beautiful works, but their works often make people feel oppressive without something transparent,something open. His works are different from others’. He has something that others do not have.I think you are of the same kind , you also have something others do not have. Your practice is idiographic and you are inimitable.

“Every kind of expression has its own function.”

Teng Fei: What you said just now is absolutely true. My method of creation comes from art, not a place of design. In terms of my personal expression, most of it is hiding behind the art, and I rely on jewelry as an access point. When I want to make something, I need to maintain absolute freedom. When you are teaching, you have to keep the design in mind, because after all, it is design you are teaching. I’m always transforming the roles of designer and artist. In any case, I find it interesting, and I feel there’s a lot to do in there.

Yin Jinan: It’s just like my taste of writing. I think there are two styles in writing. One is used to write a standard thesis. Can you express yourself through a thesis? The answer is “yes”, but only in a very professional, academic way. However, you can’t entirely express yourself, as there are a lot of ideas that can’t be put in this kind of writing. You can also write essays—some people may call them reviews, but I always call them essays. This essay is writing based on artwork. Its literary style is completely different from a thesis. I write these two kinds of articles, but you can’t say I only write one and not the other.

Using only one type of writing can only express some things，not everything. I can’t say I can swap them. Or I could designate one way to express everything, but not every expression is pure. So there are many ways and channels to express things and each expression has its own pure function. Put together, you get powerful insight, not as scattered perspective. Lu Xun for example, he wrote not only literary history and political commentary, but also novels. He wrote prose and essays, along with keeping a journal for several decades. He wrote in every imaginable literary style. He expressed himself in all directions and he found that each was a side of himself.

You yourself also have no limits. You make prints, oil paintings and sculptures. You make almost everything. You are an artist.

“Our current state of being is actually extremely uncertain”

Teng Fei: One might say, at this stage, you should be pure in thought, and see clearly about everything. What would you say is the most important thing in life, at this stage?

Yin Jinan: Free thought. A smooth expression of everything imaginable. This is the most important thing.I am freer than before. First, subjects are free, so I don’t belong to any specific subject. In conversations, I hate hearing “you are a…”or “you are like…” I hate it because I’m not any of those things, I just am what I am. Just as long as I can freely think and express. Once you are limited by a kind of label, you will resist it. I especially don’t like standard of universal things.

Teng Fei: That’s true, what you just said. I also can’t stand this limitation. Just like you said, I always try to stay away from the majority. As soon as something becomes popular, I withdraw from it. It’s a conditioned response. Inasmuch as our birth date, we do have a strong resemblance between us.

Yin Jinan: We are all in connection with this. It’s because we both are Aquarians. They say Aquarians pursue freedom, and they hate limitations and restrictions.

Teng Fei: A student of mine also said it is very hard to know what Aquarians are thinking.

Yin Jinan: Yes, Lv Shengzhong’s comment about me was “You can’t put him in any right place.”

Teng Fei: What is your opinion on the current state of art in this era?

Yin Jinan: In general, art is gradually detaching from categories of values. It doesn’t represent a value judgment. We can say it only represents one’s temporary or momentary ideas and feelings. In the past, contemporary art and humanities were very difficult to separate, but now their relationship has loosened. Humanities is based on values. But now art has become a temporal thing: a temporary sensation, idea or method, but not a representation of values. This is a big change.

In the rapid change from modernism to post-modernism, a man can change a lot. He may move in different directions and express his ideas in a multitude of ways. We may wonder if he is really one man. It doesn’t matter whether he is one or many; he is expressing ideas that belong to specific moments in time, and those ideas may not have—and have no need of—any connection with him or with each other.

Teng Fei: Speaking of this, our current state of being is actually extremely uncertain.

Ps:This is an extract from a longer conversation; edited by Jiang Yuehong

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